In this episode of "Worthy Words," the hosts Agostino Renna and Stef Tschida interview Daniel Lamarre, the former president and CEO of Cirque du Soleil who has written a book called "Balancing Acts: Unleashing the Power of Creativity in Life and Work."
The hosts and Daniel discuss the critical role of creativity in business. They emphasize that creativity is essential for innovation and staying relevant in a constantly changing world. They also highlight the importance of tailoring messages to resonate with the audience and incorporating creativity into communication.
The transcript concludes with a thank you and an announcement for the next podcast in the series on effective leadership in communications.
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Daniel Lamarre's Website
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Transcript of Today's Episode
Agostino Renna
Welcome to Worthy Words, a podcast for people who recognize that being a great communicator is a requirement for being a great leader.
Stef Tschida
Communication and other so-called soft skills are finally being recognized as the absolute behavioral must haves that allow you to engage, empower and inspire anyone you have the privilege of affecting. Ready to level up your leadership by becoming a better communicator?
We're glad you're here.
Welcome to Worthy Words. We're your hosts. He's Agostino Renna, a senior executive in an international publicly listed company who understands the critical importance of culture and communication.
Agostino Renna
And she's Stef Tschida, a communications expert who's counseled executives across industries on how to communicate proactively and intentionally.
The focus of today's episode is the critical role that creativity plays in business. And I'm pretty confident in being able to say that there probably aren't many people more qualified to speak to us about this topic than our guest today, Daniel Lamarre.
So he has served as president and CEO of Cirque du Soleil for 22 years before transitioning to the role of executive vice chairman of its board in 2021. And what's particularly interesting is Daniel has done a nice job of bottling some of the learnings from his career in a book called Balancing Acts: Unleashing the Power of Creativity in Your Life and Work. It also needs to be said, by the way, that Daniel and I are from the same province in Canada, the fine province of Quebec.
Daniel, you would have expected me to put a plug in for Quebec on this episode. And it is the home, for those of you that don't know, it's the home of maple syrup. It's the home of poutine. If you don't know what that is, Google it. It will change your life. And also the home of Cirque du Soleil. So Daniel, we're so thrilled to have you on the show.
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, it's a pleasure for me to join you guys. You know, I love to spend time talking more about creativity and business. And for me, it's a great opportunity that I have to chat with you guys.
Stef Tschida
We couldn't be more thrilled. Thank you so much, Daniel, for taking the time. So we can't wait to dig into the topic of creativity and business with you today. But before we get to that, we know that work happens by humans who have lives outside of what it is that they do all day. And that's why we kick off each podcast episode with a quick get to know us segment designed to help us and our listeners know who our guests and our co-hosts are as people beyond our work.
So Daniel, I'm gonna kick us off.
Daniel, do you have a favorite breakfast food that you've sampled from all your travels around the world?
Daniel Lamarre
First and foremost, you know, I need my fruit in the morning. So I need my fruit plate. And I like some traveling from one country to the next to see what kind of omelet they serve because it's, it's very different from one country to the next. And I like to try those every morning to see for me, it's a foodie way to get in the local culture.
Stef Tschida
Amazing. Sounds delicious. Agostino, how about you?
Agostino Renna
Easy, the Montreal bagel. And now many will have opinions on this. But to those that are listening to this show, let me say with absolute certainty and conviction that there's nothing in the world like the Montreal bagel. So if you want the breakfast of champions that gives the kind of creativity that we're going to talk about on this podcast, the Montreal bagel.
Stef Tschida
Yeah, I want to hear, does Daniel agree with this, this Montreal bagel? Because I'm not familiar.
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, I do because there is, you know, this famous place in Montreal and I live very few streets away from it. Saturday morning, you see people in line. I know people that come from New York City to Montreal, to have access to those amazing bagels. So we're famously known for that.
Stef Tschida
Oh, I've learned something new.
Agostino Renna
In fact, the one place, Stef, this is a true story, the one place is open 24/7, doesn't even have a lock on the door. So they just push bagels out the door 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Stef Tschida
And if you've got New Yorkers coming for it, when they're supposed to be known for their bagels, that actually seems like a really big deal. So that's fantastic. I have that on my radar now. Yeah, I'm just pretty simple, like bacon and eggs. Love that protein, kind of standard. Nothing too exciting there, but our family loves to eat a good breakfast on weekends.
Agostino Renna
Really good. So Daniel, I'm not gonna ask a tricky question and this is a loaded question. Maybe unanswerable by you, but I'm gonna try anyways. So what is your favorite Cirque du Soleil show?
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, as you said, it's like a mom, which one’s, you know, her favorite kid. The reality is I love all of it for different reasons. Obviously, “O” is a signature show for us. It's the most successful show in the world. As a matter of fact, I love that show. But emotionally, I love the Beatles show because that was such an achievement for us to convince the Beatles to do a show with us. So emotionally, I'm tying in with the Beatles show.
Agostino Renna
That's amazing. Stef, what about you? Do you have a favorite?
Stef Tschida
It's “O.” I saw it in Las Vegas on a business trip as a very young person. And I just will absolutely never forget it. Easily the most magical thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Agostino, how about you?
Agostino Renna
I actually have two, and then my first pick would be Cavalia. And the reason for that is, we own a horse. Actually, my daughter is huge into horseback riding. And so, just a beautiful manifestation of kind of equestrian meets performing arts. And then “O”, for sure. And what's interesting is I saw the first show in Toronto, Canada, and I saw the second in Las Vegas, which also speaks to the global nature of Cirque du Soleil, right?
And the fact that it's really been all over the place in the last 20 plus years, for sure.
Yeah.
So listen, now that we have some of this fun stuff out of the way, let's get to the critical part of our engagement here today. We'll dive into today's topic, basically, and we talk a lot on this podcast about how businesses need to respond to what I would characterize as very rapidly changing conditions around them.
And there's many ideas floating around in terms of how this should be done, etc. But I think the one concept that seems to not get a lot of attention, or certainly not the attention it deserves, is the topic of creativity. And in fact, Daniel, you argue that without creativity, there's no business. So tell us more. What do you mean by that?
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, it's kind of a drastic statement, but I truly, truly believe that it's the case. And if somewhat in doubt, just look to what happened to Kodak, you know, because Kodak, you know, [rejected] the idea that digital photography will take over from their business. And even if they have the technology, they refuse to use it, because it says there is no way that people are going to watch their photographs on their phone, they would need their paper photographs. And guess what? It doesn’t exist anymore. So to me, creativity is the first step to innovation. And innovation, it's the only way where you can keep and protect your leadership and your relevancy in your industry.
Agostino Renna
That’s such a great response. Maybe a quick build on that is, you know, I think that some people are of the opinion that creativity is the work of those that have been anointed by like some higher power. And I would argue that, as human beings, I think we're inherently creative. We would not have survived as a species as long as we have, had we not been inherently creative.
Now, I do think the basic foundation of creativity is, in my view at least, new or different perspective. Meaning, looking at the same thing through a different lens, and questioning both what it is, but more importantly, what it could be, right? And I know in my own career, sort of the most creative people that I've worked with in business work, they seem to be governed by a simple set of rules:
The first was that they knew for sure that they didn't have all the answers. So the most creative people know for sure that they don't have all the answers, at least based on my perspective.
Second, is they were always inherently curious. So they were always asking questions. “What about, why not, why could not it be like this?”
The third thing I always observed is that they surround themselves with as much diverse perspective as possible.
And the last, which to me is always fascinating, is that they train themselves to be comfortable with discomfort.
And I think when you bring all of those things together, it just creates the kind of leader that is inherently creative and actually creates around them an environment for creativity to flow.
My last point on this, and I'm going to put a plug in for the creative arts is just the very importance of the creative arts in the upbringing of our children. It's always very clear to me who it is in business that has had some kind of artistic hobby. It’s very evident. They're the ones who tend to see sort of the beauty where others see flaws. They're the ones that tend to see solutions where other people see problems, they tend to hear music where other people hear noise. And so as a parent, and as a business leader, one of the greatest gifts you can give to a child during their upbringing is encouraging them to experiment with the creative arts. It creates a very different type of mental muscle, I think. And whether you become a corporate CEO or you become a Broadway star, all of that stuff, I think serves you really, really well. So I always tell people if your children are curious about the creative arts, nudge them into that space, because it just develops a different type of muscle, in my view.
Stef Tschida
That's amazing. Daniel, Cirque du Soleil is a large global business that has innovated and adapted for decades through some incredible changes most recently, the pandemic. You talk about how no business deserves to exist, unless it is constantly finding new ways to make its customers’ lives better. Can you share with us a little bit about how Cirque du Soleil has done just that over the past few years, especially?
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, the pressure we have as an organization is to be able to continue to surprise people. And you wouldn't believe the level of pressure there is when we develop a new show. And we have no choice than to put our creativity at work in order to bring entertainment to the next level. So it means that we have to be on the lookout all the time for new artists.
And we have people coming from 90 different nationalities working within Cirque. So if you would walk here in our studio, you wouldn't have the feeling that you're in Montreal, you will have the feeling that you are at the United Nations. And having those people coming from so many different cultures always add to the outcome of the creative process.
So that’s from the performance level. Therefore, we have also to find new technologies, also to make sure that whatever we present in our show is relevant. So it's like constant, constant challenge, to reinvent ourselves to keep and exceed the expectations that our fan have for our shows.
Stef Tschida
And those expectations are always increasing, right? I mean, think about all the things in our lives that we used to have a certain expectation, that expectation has increased, you know, tenfold, and it just keeps going. And from a creative standpoint, it's really fascinating to think about, how do you stay on top of that? And for a typical organization, who maybe isn't thinking about creativity as much, I’d love to just get your thoughts. Like, how do you feel like they can incorporate more of that and kind of use that to meet the evolving and increasing expectations that their own clients have of them?
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, you know, I would challenge anybody to bring me to any type of organization and tell me that they don't need creativity. Let's take a boring business for a moment, let's take a bank. You know, banks would need creativity as much as we do here because if they want to remain relevant, they would have to offer new products, new services to their clientele. They have to be creative in the way they manage their employees. They have to be creative in the way they serve their customers.
So I could put together a list of 20 different initiatives that they can do. So that's why I'm a huge, you know, promoter of creativity, not only for Cirque. Bring me in any type of business and I will find you a lot of challenges for your creativity, and how it's going to make your company more relevant, and therefore a leader in your industry.
Agostino Renna
If you're a large company, you know, sometimes a little bit old bureaucratic, you know, it's interesting, you referenced banks as an example, but where you want to use creativity to innovate and achieve sort of a level of performance and greatness. Where do you start with all of this? How would you walk down that path?
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah. First and foremost, it's very, very important that you give clear mandate to your people. We cannot go in a room and say, “Oh let’s be creative today.” That's not how the process works. The way it works is you have to put a problem in the middle of the table and say, how can we be creative in coming with new solutions that will make a difference?
And therefore, there are in each organization, a core business. In our case, it's, you know, building a show. In the case of Apple, it’s bringing a new software or new technologies, but it doesn't mean that all the other services internally cannot be creative as well. So you should give a mandate to every single department in your organization to be creative and say to your HR people, “How can we more creative then we will recruit people? How can we be more creative at retaining our people?” Marketing, is easy because they, by essence, they have to be very creative. But my point is, it starts by giving a clear mandate in each department you have within your organization. And then after that, in your core business, which is the essence of what you're going to deliver to your customer. In our case, it's a show, then you have to push the boundaries of creativity to become more successful.
Agostino Renna
You know, there's something you just said that really struck a chord with me, which is, I don't think that you find creativity. I think that creativity finds you. So to an extent, you have to create, I think as a leader, the right conditions for creativity to exist. You know, we talked about humility, curiosity, diversity of thought and perspective, comfort with discomfort. And then I think you have to make time and space for it when it presents itself because there's a lot of businesses, at least certainly from my perspective, that are so focused on engineering creativity, that they consider creativity to be a distraction when it happens because it's a diversion to their process. So I think creating an environment where you can spontaneously nurture a creative energy is also critically important from a cultural perspective. I don't know if you would agree, Daniel.
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, I think it's important. And also, again, you have to be able to slice it in different meanings in different departments within your organization. But the other thing you have to show is openness. You know, our people know that we are open to new ideas. And openness is probably the number one condition to be successful, is show your employees that you're open to your, to their ideas, show your employees that you are looking for new ways to target a market and then internally also create an environment that will be creative. Here, we went as far as hiring an internal clown. So I have my own clown at Cirque, just to remind people within the organization, that's what we do in life. So we're not a bank. We're not an administrative organization. We're a fun business. And that clown has become an internal symbol to remind ourselves what we do in life, which is to have fun and entertaining people from around the world.
Stef Tschida
I know every company needs an internal clown, but it makes me think about, you know, how many companies haven't created that psychological safety for people and they don't tolerate the failure that sometimes comes with trying new things. And it's just, it squashes creativity before it almost even gets started.
So I think there's some real lessons here for so many organizations who will be listening to this. Amazing. I'm never gonna forget about an internal clown. That's incredible. I love it.
Daniel Lamarre
I'm not suggesting that you hire your clown, but that last thing that any organization should have the equivalent of a clown, meaning a symbol to illustrate their core business.
Agostino Renna
It's a great point.
Stef Tschida
Well, thinking about sort of the leadership implications of all of this. We talk a lot about leadership on this podcast and how critical communication is to leadership. But you talk a lot about what makes a strong leader and the concept of step up and step back. I would love for you to share with our listeners what that means.
Daniel Lamarre
First of all, you know, we have to be able to go out of our comfort zone and we have to be able to accept that we will fail. I made so many mistakes in my life at Cirque, but the one thing I didn't do is I have not denied those mistakes. The opposite. I've learned from those failures. And to me, this is key, people should understand that we should try stuff and we should learn from our failures in order to be able to innovate.
Because if you don't take risks, if you don't communicate to the employees that they should try stuff, then you will never be an innovative organization. And guess what? Maybe one day you will disappear because of your lack of creativity.
Agostino Renna
It's the Kodak story. Stef, I know you have passion about this topic. Would you build on what Daniel just said?
Stef Tschida
Yeah, I just, I think you just can't stress it enough what you said about that. The idea of creating that space from a time perspective. So many, so few employees have any margin in their schedules to actually sit and ponder and be creative from that safety perspective that we can try things, we can fail here. You're not going to be penalized.
I've seen a lot of companies in my experience that sort of say that, but that's not what they actually do. So how do you align the actions and the words and just create that environment that's gonna cultivate that creativity? It's so incredibly important, probably more now than it's ever been. Right? As we've talked about these, the rising consumer expectations that are skyrocketing all the time and that fierce competition and all of the headwinds that businesses are facing. It feels like creativity is going to be that thing that’s going to give some the edge and some not, right? In terms of who's gonna survive and thrive through all of this.
Agostino Renna
Absolutely.
Daniel Lamarre
I think it's very important that it's not only a speech but that you act on it. You know, I remember one day my vice president of creation came in my office. He's very excited. He says, “Daniel, Daniel, there is this teacher in Switzerland and he has invented a drone that we can use in our show,” and I interrupted him and I said, “What are you doing in my office?” He said, “Woah, you didn't like my idea, Daniel?” I said, “I love your idea. Take the next flight to Switzerland and bring back the technology and act on it,” because I knew what I was doing. I knew that within an hour everybody in the building knew that this guy was going to Switzerland. And that was, you know, that anecdote gave me more credibility than any speeches I could have done. Because for them, it says, “OK, he's serious”. It's not only a speech, he acts on it and action as we know, speaks much more than speech.
Agostino Renna
Excellent. So, we’re gonna keep pulling on this thread of creativity because you’ve worked with some of the most creative leaders on the planet. I mean, you name it: The Beatles, you referenced this earlier, James Cameron, Warren Buffett, who some would argue is a creative genius in his own, right? You know, I mean, he's not an artist, but he's a creative genius.
What have you learned, Daniel, from those individuals on how to integrate creativity into leadership to achieve amazing results?
Daniel Lamarre
Yeah, if you come in Montreal and you visit the creative studio, it will probably take you an hour, an hour and a half. When I did the visit with James Cameron, it took him 5.5 hours. He couldn't stop asking questions. He wanted to know everything about everything. He was talking to the technician, he was talking to the woman in the workshop, a costume workshop department. He was so curious about how we do things.
For me, that was a big lesson because I thought I was curious. But compared to him, I was not. But that's the kind of guy that is always trying to get better at what he does. And that's why he has had the success he had with Titanic. And that's why he has done even better with Avatar because he's pushing the boundaries of his own creativity all the time.
And that's something I've learned from him. I've learned the same thing from Paul McCartney. Paul McCartney, when he walked in the rehearsal of our Beatles show, he was like a kid. He [inaudible] for everything. And I think, you know, I cannot stress enough the importance of curiosity to feed your muscle you have in your brain, to be more and more creative.
Agostino Renna
Super well said.
Stef Tschida
Amazing. I also love just this idea of instilling in our young people curiosity. I work with a lot of high school students who are applying to college. And one of the biggest things I tell them in an interaction is you’re being judged by the questions you ask. You don’t just get to kick back, and you’re done talking about yourself when they say, “What questions do you have for me?” you're still being tested.
Actually, that probably says a lot more about you than the things that you've proactively chosen to share in terms of, you know, your curiosity and your critical thinking and all sorts of things. And a lot of students don't seem to be picking that up or learning that in school. So I just love the idea too of how do we continue to cultivate a curious next generation of students?
One of the other things, Daniel, that we've read a lot about is just how you cultivate vulnerability in leadership, and you've talked about that. How have you personally used vulnerability with your teams and what have you seen work and not work well around vulnerability?
Daniel Lamarre
I think, you know, too often leaders of organizations don't want to show their vulnerability, they don't want to show their emotion. And by doing that, they're sending a wrong signal because their employees think that they're not real human beings because normal real beings, you know, have emotion and have vulnerability. And I remember when we went through the pandemic here, that was a disaster.
So I didn't say to our employees, it's not a disaster. I said this is a disaster, you know, but we're going to succeed together. And I was very, very emotional through the process because I was hurt like any of our employees about what was going on. I was lost like any of our employees about what was going on. But as a leader, I was able to show vulnerability, but I was also able to provide a focus that we will, together, get out of that, you know, crisis and win.
But winning and being a leader doesn't mean that you have to hide your vulnerability. If you feel like crying, just cry. If you feel like shouting, just shout. But at the end of the day, you know, show to people that you are a real human being and that you do care and show empathy for your employees.
Stef Tschida
I think that's such a key part of creating that psychological safety that facilitates creativity as well. Agostino, how about you? Just any lessons in vulnerability from your years and years of executive leadership?
Agostino Renna
So, absolutely yes. And I can tell you that, you know, I grew up in big corporates. Like big companies with alpha males, people that were invincible. That's the environment that I grew up in and learned how to lead in. And what I would say is that it's absolutely clear that the superhero-like leader is obsolete because this next generation won't want to work for people like that.
With the complexity that exists in the business world today, the rapid rate of change of the variables that you're dealing with, that govern your business, the amount of disruptive forces that are out there, it's nonsensical and disingenuous to think that there's a leader out there who doesn't make mistakes, who doesn't get tired, who doesn't get frustrated, who isn't scared occasionally, who isn't sad occasionally and who isn't second guessing themselves occasionally.
It's impossible. It's absolutely impossible that such a being exists in the current environment. So the leaders that I see succeeding today are real people, trying to do great work with and through great teams in an environment of empathy and realism. And I think those are the leaders that are able to bring followership.
Stef Tschida
Amazing. So my favorite topic then, communication. We talk a lot here about how critical communication skills are to effective leadership. In my own experience working with companies of all sizes, I have found that many struggle to share a clear vision and mobilize people around that vision.
And this is a concept, Daniel, I know you talk a lot about. So I'd love for you to share what you found works best when communicating about strategy, knowing that people at all levels sometimes struggle to wrap their heads around these types of concepts.
Daniel Lamarre
I like to say that the three things you need to, well, you know, bring and mobilize your people is one communicate, two communicate, three communicate. I think that's very, very important. But when I say communicating, it's not only throwing a speech to your employees, but it's also consulting and listening and see their feedback. Because sometimes, you know, you communicate to your employees once and you said, “Ok, I did my job.”
So now they know, but the reality is, you know, you should observe. So all of your people have reacted to your message. Do they understand exactly? Because you cannot work on the mission for six months or a year and assume that your employees will get it in one speech. So it's very, very important. And we do a lot of that here internally, is to go and consult our employees all the time to see if they got our message clearly. And the other thing I should say because you've been talking about generation, you know, as much as we would love to be 20 years old, we are not.
So we have to be open to understanding how the new kids that are joining your company are going to change your company. And you have to be open to the idea that you need the younger people to change your company, bringing new ideas in your organization. And to me, it's key that will leave room to the younger people because they are the future of your organization.
Agostino Renna
So true.
Stef Tschida
Yeah, I talk about this a lot. One of my favorite quotes about communication is like, the biggest challenge with communication is the misperception that it happened. Just because we threw out something from our perspective, on our timing, does not mean the message was received.
So the way that you sort of spoke to that, I think resonates so much with me as a professional communicator coaching folks on these concepts all the time. Agostino, what would you add to this?
Agostino Renna
My view of this is particularly storytelling over facts and figures, I think works really, really well when you're trying to communicate. And I learned this the hard way and I'll tell a quick story, but I would say deliver your messages in a currency that is relevant to the audience that you're talking to. And years ago, early in my career, I ran a relatively large truck-based services business.
So these were technicians in trucks that we basically sold by the hour, plumbers, electricians, different types of technicians. And I went on a road show to basically unveil the new strategy for the business. And my audience was predominantly these technicians, plumbers, electricians, etc. And in the first road show, I went up and I spoke about sales increases and I spoke about profitability increase in cash conversion and Capex investment and this that and the other.
And I had lost everyone that was in the room. Everyone! And I left that venue really disappointed in myself and their reaction. I was almost thinking about it from the perspective of, why can't these people get excited? Right? This is an exciting story. I went to the next venue and as I was walking into the next building, what I noticed was there was maybe 40 or 45 of our service vehicles parked outside in the parking lot.
Ok, and when I went on stage and talked about what we were trying to build for the future, what I said to the group was, “If we get this right, in three years from now, the 45 trucks that are in this parking lot will be 110.” And that crystallized for everyone because I spoke to them in a currency that was meaningful for them. And so the importance of just delivering messages that land with your audience, I think is a critical communicating factor in my view.
So Daniel, a follow up and near final question. So as we think about kind of our focus today on creativity and business, how would you recommend that leaders incorporate more creativity into how they communicate with their people? I mean, if you think about Cirque du Soleil, Cirque du Soleil is in the business of serving up on a beautiful platter, a set of key artistic messages that are all gift wrapped and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy when they see them, right? So if you now bring that idea to the communication space, how do you do that in communicating? How do you bring creativity to communication?
Daniel Lamarre
First and foremost, the way we were presented to our team is that we have now 5,000 pair of ears and eyes, that can work for this organization in order for us to remain relevant. And so all those people are seeing so much artistic content around the world that they should be the feeders that will make sure that this company is understanding how this industry is developing.
So you have to create that creative environment that people understand that the future of the company is in their hands. The more dynamic they will be in bringing us new ideas, the more dynamic they will be by being on the lookout all the time to see what else is happening in our industry, how new technologies are going to influence life's entertainment in the future and also have the modesty to tell them, “I don't have all the answers.”
I don't know how immersive reality is going to influence our business in the future, but I know it will. So therefore, I have to find the answer and see how it's going to, you know, influence our future. So that's the kind of spirit you bring internally and the more you ask questions, the more you will have their participation. The more you're doing speeches in one direction, the less buy-in you will get.
Agostino Renna
Interesting.
Stef Tschida
We cannot thank you enough, Daniel, for sharing your incredible legacy of creativity and leadership with us and our listeners today. If you as a listener want to learn more about what Daniel is up to, where in the world he is today, follow him on LinkedIn.
He shares incredible content out there or visit his website at www.DanielLamarre.ca. And as always, you can also connect with Agostino and me on LinkedIn. We'd love to keep the conversation going with you about creativity and business out there.
Agostino Renna
And finally, please stay tuned for our next podcast in this limited series coming out in a couple of weeks where we'll share more lessons from effective leaders on communications. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to your podcast, so you don't miss a single episode.
Stef Tschida
Until next time, lead and communicate well.